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Well, the day has come, and it's much more anti-climatic then I thought it would be. So much misinformation, it's hard to know what's going on. What do you guys see happening in post-Fidel Cuba?
A takeover "in the name of democracy?"
Continued oppression by Raul?
A return to the puppet leaders of the first half of the 20th century?
A happy medium?
Interesting... But I've no idea what's gonna happen...
I just hope Cubans live in democracy... I hope they can CHOOSE whether to stay or to leave or to travel to other countries... to be free...
I couldn't agree more with mem.
I have never travelled to Cuba for that reason. I would like to see it free first
What I hope the most is that, whatever happens (hopefully freedom, which should be almost obious now! globalisation creates "freedom", a kind of...) they'll keep there beautiful culture: lifestyle and arts, and that they will not loose that because of money mentality... they have such a great music, literature, arts, architecture... lets whish that for them, the best! And let's hope that the good things Castro did, yes there are some! will also stay, and that the rest will vanish forever giving a great exemple for the rest of the world! Still a lot of work to do!
Forgive me for I don't understand your comments. Are the Americans free because they can travel anywhere? Or any other person, not Cuban?
Excuse me, I don't share your opinions. I am not in favour of the restrictions in my country but I don't see what democracy there is in the States for example. A President who cheated in the elections and has been missruling the country, taking it to the economic recession, attacking other countries over "some ghost nuclear weapons" (not over oil and power)? or interfering in other countries in the name of democracy? or even more now, "bugging" the communication system to know what the citizens talk.
On the contrary, Cuba has been helping other countries, not killing their people . Just check the news please, find how many countries Cuba has sent doctors, teachers, coaches, etc and then compare to how many soldiers the United States have sent to death for no reason. (this is not a personal attack to the US. just an example)
I don't see chains around me. Just because I need an invitation letter to travel, it does not mean that I am not free. Let's see, in Cuba children can play anywhere without their parents worrying to have them kidnapped, people can walk any time of the day or night without fear of an assault or anything else. Education and health care is free!!! oh, I think the list will be endless but I will bore you, so I won't continue.
Improvements, of course we need them, in the economy most of all. We need to open to investment and modify many things in our economic system and that is the change we need. Other changes, yes, we need them too but we do not want the "help" of the United States to change things. Stay in their own country and stop "helping" other countries in the name of democracy. I absolutely hope that Obama wins the elections and CHANGE can happen for them. BUT since a black man is not supposed to get to power (and if he does, then he's murdered), I don't see that CHANGE happening for them. Yes, democracy, absolutely...
And Mathias: thanks for your words...I totally agree that there's still a lot of work to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraT
I bear witness to this, In Venezuela there are now many Cuban doctors providing basic medical assistance in places where no other doctors would dare to go. But is also true Sandy that some of those doctors are now searching their way out (specially to Colombia - our neighbor country) in order to ask for asylum in the American embassy at Bogota. It makes me wonder their reasons for doing so, and why can’t they just choose freely where they want to live. I also must confess that it saddens me to realize that now these Cuban doctors see my country as another prison they need to escape from. All in all, I want you to know that I have the greatest respect for your point of view, and even feel privileged to have through this forum the opportunity to receive so many insights and ideas from people that have som much to share. Thank you my friend and thank you all !!!! :)
YOu are so right my friend Hebe. They and many others have left and are leaving the country but I can assure you that they are not looking for democracy or freedom. They just want a better life and that means changes in the economy of the country. I will not expose all the difficulties that Cubans go through because it is not necessary, everyone knows them but I strongly believe that we can be happier with some major changes in economy and some others that is not to me to decide or the people abroad who don't live here.
Many years ago, the people who left the country thought differently, they had political reasons but this generation is looking for a better life in terms of economy. I would even say they do not care about politics or whoever rules the country as long as the good achievements be kept and the rest be changed, and the basics is just the economy!!
I can't believe myself!! I hate and have always hated politics!
SandraT, first of all I never ment to offend you... you sound really upset and I don't understand why :( because I never attacked you or your country. When I said "the right to CHOOSE, to stay or to leave the country" I never wanted to say you were inprisoned... And I never said the United States was an example of anything... you mentioned the States.
I still wish you the best of lucks to you and your country...
Best regards,
Mercedes
Mercy, please don't take it personal. I felt upset, yes, because many people talk about democracy and freedom in Cuba and they have no idea of what they are talking about. You have to live here to know the truth.
The example of the States was my own example. This is because they (the officials, not the people) have been promoting many ways to set the Cubans free and that is one thing that bothers me. War, intervention, etc. in a way for many years they have been in war against us and one of the examples is the Embargo law. Do anyone here knows that Cuba is not allowed to buy medicines for children with cancer in the States? Do anyone here knows that we are not allowed to do any kind of transaction in USD and because of this the country suffers great losses of money every day? that they can't sell equipment that we need in the hospitals or any other? so, this is part of the embargo law. This is why I get upset when I hear people saying free Cuba or something and the greatest part of it all has been promoted by the States itself.
Your opinions were just other opinions among many others than just like you don't know the whole reality of my country. But above all that, you having different opinions, we are all colleagues and as I said before, I hate politics and we are here not to change the world but to exchange and learn from each other. If anyone felt insulted, please, forgive me; I was just mentioning some facts.
No, SandraT, you were not. You were giving your point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraT
Yes, they are. but travelling is not the most important thing in the world. But saying or at least thinking (!) what you wish is in my opinion.Quote:
Are the Americans free because they can travel anywhere? Or any other person, not Cuban?
If you don't feel imprisoned and abused, good for you. Many of your community members do. In Spain only some days ago four dissidents arrived who spent years in prison for thinking what they shouldn't and for opposing the government.
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/inter...lpepuint_7/TesQuote:
Los cuatro disidentes cubanos, liberados por su Gobierno, y sus familiares, hasta un total de 17 personas, han llegado a las 14:45 horas de este domingo al aeropuerto de Torrejón de Ardoz (Madrid), donde han recibido atención sanitaria por parte de Cruz Roja, han informado fuentes del Ministerio de Exterioes. ..
La liberación es la más nutrida del "Grupo de los 75" desde el 2004 y se produce después de que el pasado lunes funcionarios de Cuba y España celebraran en Madrid la segunda reunión del "mecanismo de diálogo" sobre derechos humanos abierto en abril del año pasado.
A fact is something weird, it seems that a fact doesn't really exist at all, as a fact depends on how you look at it.
I was mentioning facts indeed. I mentioned free education, health care, freedom to be in the streets without fear, cooperation with other countries (not war). Those are facts, not my opinion.
And in my opinion, Americans or any other persons are not free because they can travel anywhere BUT CUBA. Do you know that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba? that they can even go to prison or pay high fines??? yes, they are so free indeed...
The opinion of some persons of the community (just like my opinion is not) is not the opinion of the majority.
As I said before there are many restrictions in my government and I do not support them but there are many other good things and unfortunately some people don't realize that. I am sure that many doctors or engineers would not be so, if education was not free in this country.
That's amazing .. I really din´t know that. I wonder what is the legal basis for having someone arrested in such situation. :confused: :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraT
En honor a la verdad eso no suena consistente con THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE
Free education and health care (even for illegal immigrants!) are free in this country and Germany for instance , too. Freedom to be in the street? That depends on how you see it, Sandra. Dissidents of the government are definitely not without fear. Cooperation with other countries is assured by many other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by SandraT
and the people can go where they please.
and they can say what they want without fear of getting imprisoned.
and one can choose schools and Universities.
and one can get all kind of information, international and national likewise.
and one has access to any kind of modern technology.
and, and....
You cannot be talking about democratic countries. Any person can go where he /she wants. Americans have a serious problem concerning this matter, but not "any other country". I could go visit your country tomorrow. Could you come and visit mine?Quote:
And in my opinion, Americans or any other persons are not free because they can travel anywhere BUT CUBA.
Disculpen, pero hay momentos en los que me parece que estamos en frecuencias diferentes. No tengo intenciones de terminar en una discusión política, y con esto doy por concluída mi participación en este thread.
Ya sé que Cuba tiene cosas buenísimas, lugares bellos y gente muy bien capacitada, buenos profesionales... nada de está en duda.
Cuando hablo de libertad y la posibilidad de ELEGIR, sí hago referencia a la situación política y económica, que desde mi humilde entender no es la ideal... y sin caer en comparaciones de ningún tipo. Yo no estoy hablando de ningún otro país más que de Cuba. Y para mí DEMOCRACIA es otra cosa. Tal como lo describe la DRAE:
democracia.
(Del gr. δημοκρατία).
1. f. Doctrina política favorable a la intervención del pueblo en el gobierno.
2. f. Predominio del pueblo en el gobierno político de un Estado.
SAludos,
Mercedes
Eso pienso yo. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mem286
Me tomo la libertad de subrayar también el segundo punto.Quote:
Saludos:)
I like this debate on what a democratic society truly is. "For the people, by the people..." and so on, but is that just rhetoric in the United States? Do U.S. citizens truly run things, or is the real power held by the various lobbies, oil companies, consulting firms (i.e. Haliburton), etc?
The "stolen election" that was mentioned earlier, as well as things such as the Patriot Act and Bush's wire-tap plan point to a not-so-free society. The latter are suspiciously reminiscent of the CDR's in Havana...
How do Cubans view things such as the CDR(neighborhood watch groups) who report to the government? The difficulties in traveling abroad? The necessity to inform the government if you are going to move to a different part of the country, and possible expulsion from that area without documentation? Prohibition from entering hotels, namely the Nacional?
There is evidence on both sides of opression. No one country is "better" than another. I just hope that in the coming years, the U.S. does not take an "interest in installing democracy" in Cuba, as it has in other parts of the world.
I hope my words do not come across as an attack on Cubans or on U.S. citizens. The people themselves are good, it's the governments that create the problems.
I saw the cover of Newsweek yesterday and it said something like "Goodbye Fidel" or something of the sort... the guy's not dead, is he? They mean he just step down from power, I guess (and the phrasal reminds me of that little incident when he fell on a stage or something... laughter is a good method to discredit someone, and a falacy as well). :D
Guys, regarding this, you might be interested in checking Lefort's philosophy. At least in BA there is a new book coming out between this year and next. He claims that a society and its government are parts of a whole. With the change from postmodern societies to modern societies, the place once occupied by the king (who was considered the head of a social body, a concept created during that period) was left empty and it is being filled by popular agreement. Now, the interesting thing is that he studies how a democracy could become a totalitarism. (Check Nietzsche's observations on that respect as well... speaking of denouncing oppression). I agree with Justin's very insightful comment: I don't think one regime is better than the other. They are merely different ways of filling in that empty space of power. What makes the U.S. a democracy is the tolerance of difference, which Cuba does not seem tolerate... it's all a question of semiotics.
Good points indeed, I will take a look at Lefort, he sounds very intriguing.
Gabriel, you mentioned Fidel's famous fall and the use of ridicule to bring someone down-- that reminded me of the museum in Havana with a section on the CIA's failed attempts at toppling Castro. Highlights include:
Exploding cigars to burn his face
Special powder in his shoes to make his beard fall out, thus causing Cubans to turn on him :confused:
Drugging him with LSD emitted through an aerosol spray
Ridiculous stuff, it sounds more like 9 year old kids than government officials who make decisions for a nation...
Justin,
I didn't know that! I remember once I was watching a cartoon series on Fox ("God, Bob and the Devil" or something of the sort) where they made a sarcastic joke about "Che Guevara" being in hell asking if Communism had succeded and this guy, Bob, answering "Yeah, yeah, right... it is everywhere". I don't particularly like Communism (actually, I dislike it), but I find it very despective to talk like that about an idea you don't believe in. Same thing happens with this museum you mention in Cuba: I'm sure that if the States needed it, they would have taken the island a looong time ago.
Sandra,
Your passion and patriotism are refreshing. I am so glad to hear someone speak of the good things that have come from Castro's government as most of what we hear of in the US are the bad things.
I ask you to understand that the same problem appears to be in Cuba as well. Much of what you have pointed out as wrong in the US are not as clear as your government would like you to think. Bush stealing the election must be tempered by the realization that we do not elect our president by popular vote, but by an electorial college. A concept very foreign to many.
My hopes for Cuba is that the people build a society where they weigh freedom of action with the risks that come from that freedom and find common ground where they are comfortable. A society where freedom of speach is not feared by government officials and those who disagree with the government do not have to cover their faces for fear of repriasals. It doesn't matter to me if you want to be communist, socialist, libratarian or democratic as there can be liberty tempered with security in all these types of societies.
Best of luck to you and all your countrymen and women in moving forward in this new century and creating the type of post-Castro society we all can be proud of.
Joel
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2008/03...m-01627948.htm
El gobierno de Cuba autorizó hoy la venta libre, con pesos convertibles, de computadoras, reproductores de DVD y otros electrodomésticos cuya comercialización estaba prohibida a los cubanos.
Hasta el momento, las autoridades cubanas sólo permitían la compra de PCs a extranjeros y a empresas, mientras que los reproductores de DVD eran retenidos en Aduana hasta el año pasado.
La venta de muchos aparatos eléctricos fue prohibida en los 90 debido a que el colapso de la Unión Soviética privó a Cuba de miles de millones de dólares y de suministro de petróleo, lo que produjo una escasez de energía que obligó a cortes de electricidad de hasta 18 horas diarias.
Este período, conocido en Cuba como el "período especial", mejoró en los últimos años como consecuencia de un crecimiento económico y del aprovisionamiento de petróleo por parte de Venezuela.
So Sandra this is the freedom you were talking about?