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Thread: Cuba Libre?

 
  1. #11
    Moderator SandraT's Avatar
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    I was mentioning facts indeed. I mentioned free education, health care, freedom to be in the streets without fear, cooperation with other countries (not war). Those are facts, not my opinion.
    And in my opinion, Americans or any other persons are not free because they can travel anywhere BUT CUBA. Do you know that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba? that they can even go to prison or pay high fines??? yes, they are so free indeed...
    The opinion of some persons of the community (just like my opinion is not) is not the opinion of the majority.
    As I said before there are many restrictions in my government and I do not support them but there are many other good things and unfortunately some people don't realize that. I am sure that many doctors or engineers would not be so, if education was not free in this country.
    Realmente, el destino del mundo depende, en primer lugar, de los estadistas y, en segundo lugar, de los intérpretes.
    Trygve Halvdan Lie

  2. #12
    Senior Member Hebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandraT
    Do you know that Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba? that they can even go to prison or pay high fines??? .
    That's amazing .. I really din´t know that. I wonder what is the legal basis for having someone arrested in such situation.

    En honor a la verdad eso no suena consistente con THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE
    Last edited by Hebe; 02-22-2008 at 05:01 PM.


    Truly, my dear young friends, you are a chosen generation. I hope you will never forget it.
    Gordon B. Hinckley

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    Senior Member exxcéntrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SandraT
    I was mentioning facts indeed. I mentioned free education, health care, freedom to be in the streets without fear, cooperation with other countries (not war).
    Free education and health care (even for illegal immigrants!) are free in this country and Germany for instance , too. Freedom to be in the street? That depends on how you see it, Sandra. Dissidents of the government are definitely not without fear. Cooperation with other countries is assured by many other countries.
    and the people can go where they please.
    and they can say what they want without fear of getting imprisoned.
    and one can choose schools and Universities.
    and one can get all kind of information, international and national likewise.
    and one has access to any kind of modern technology.
    and, and....

    And in my opinion, Americans or any other persons are not free because they can travel anywhere BUT CUBA.
    You cannot be talking about democratic countries. Any person can go where he /she wants. Americans have a serious problem concerning this matter, but not "any other country". I could go visit your country tomorrow. Could you come and visit mine?
    Los hombres son superiores a las mujeres porque Alá les otorgó la primacia sobre ellas. Portanto, dió a los varones el doble de lo que dió a las mujeres. Los maridos que sufrieran desobediencia de sus mujeres pueden castigarlas: abandonarlas en sus lechos, e incluso golpearlas.
    No se legó al hombre mayor calamidad que la mujer."


    El Corán (libro sagrado de los musulmanes, recitado por Alá a Maomé en el siglo VI)


  4. #14
    Senior Member mem286's Avatar
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    Disculpen, pero hay momentos en los que me parece que estamos en frecuencias diferentes. No tengo intenciones de terminar en una discusión política, y con esto doy por concluída mi participación en este thread.

    Ya sé que Cuba tiene cosas buenísimas, lugares bellos y gente muy bien capacitada, buenos profesionales... nada de está en duda.

    Cuando hablo de libertad y la posibilidad de ELEGIR, sí hago referencia a la situación política y económica, que desde mi humilde entender no es la ideal... y sin caer en comparaciones de ningún tipo. Yo no estoy hablando de ningún otro país más que de Cuba. Y para mí DEMOCRACIA es otra cosa. Tal como lo describe la DRAE:


    democracia.

    (Del gr. δημοκρατία).


    1. f. Doctrina política favorable a la intervención del pueblo en el gobierno.

    2. f. Predominio del pueblo en el gobierno político de un Estado.


    SAludos,
    Mercedes

  5. #15
    Senior Member exxcéntrica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mem286
    Ya sé que Cuba tiene cosas buenísimas, lugares bellos y gente muy bien capacitada, buenos profesionales... nada de está en duda.
    Eso pienso yo.



    democracia.

    (Del gr. δημοκρατία).


    1. f. Doctrina política favorable a la intervención del pueblo en el gobierno.

    2. f. Predominio del pueblo en el gobierno político de un Estado.
    Me tomo la libertad de subrayar también el segundo punto.

    Saludos
    Los hombres son superiores a las mujeres porque Alá les otorgó la primacia sobre ellas. Portanto, dió a los varones el doble de lo que dió a las mujeres. Los maridos que sufrieran desobediencia de sus mujeres pueden castigarlas: abandonarlas en sus lechos, e incluso golpearlas.
    No se legó al hombre mayor calamidad que la mujer."


    El Corán (libro sagrado de los musulmanes, recitado por Alá a Maomé en el siglo VI)


  6. #16
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    I like this debate on what a democratic society truly is. "For the people, by the people..." and so on, but is that just rhetoric in the United States? Do U.S. citizens truly run things, or is the real power held by the various lobbies, oil companies, consulting firms (i.e. Haliburton), etc?

    The "stolen election" that was mentioned earlier, as well as things such as the Patriot Act and Bush's wire-tap plan point to a not-so-free society. The latter are suspiciously reminiscent of the CDR's in Havana...

    How do Cubans view things such as the CDR(neighborhood watch groups) who report to the government? The difficulties in traveling abroad? The necessity to inform the government if you are going to move to a different part of the country, and possible expulsion from that area without documentation? Prohibition from entering hotels, namely the Nacional?

    There is evidence on both sides of opression. No one country is "better" than another. I just hope that in the coming years, the U.S. does not take an "interest in installing democracy" in Cuba, as it has in other parts of the world.

    I hope my words do not come across as an attack on Cubans or on U.S. citizens. The people themselves are good, it's the governments that create the problems.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    I saw the cover of Newsweek yesterday and it said something like "Goodbye Fidel" or something of the sort... the guy's not dead, is he? They mean he just step down from power, I guess (and the phrasal reminds me of that little incident when he fell on a stage or something... laughter is a good method to discredit someone, and a falacy as well).

  8. #18
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Guys, regarding this, you might be interested in checking Lefort's philosophy. At least in BA there is a new book coming out between this year and next. He claims that a society and its government are parts of a whole. With the change from postmodern societies to modern societies, the place once occupied by the king (who was considered the head of a social body, a concept created during that period) was left empty and it is being filled by popular agreement. Now, the interesting thing is that he studies how a democracy could become a totalitarism. (Check Nietzsche's observations on that respect as well... speaking of denouncing oppression). I agree with Justin's very insightful comment: I don't think one regime is better than the other. They are merely different ways of filling in that empty space of power. What makes the U.S. a democracy is the tolerance of difference, which Cuba does not seem tolerate... it's all a question of semiotics.

  9. #19
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    Good points indeed, I will take a look at Lefort, he sounds very intriguing.

    Gabriel, you mentioned Fidel's famous fall and the use of ridicule to bring someone down-- that reminded me of the museum in Havana with a section on the CIA's failed attempts at toppling Castro. Highlights include:

    Exploding cigars to burn his face

    Special powder in his shoes to make his beard fall out, thus causing Cubans to turn on him

    Drugging him with LSD emitted through an aerosol spray

    Ridiculous stuff, it sounds more like 9 year old kids than government officials who make decisions for a nation...

  10. #20
    Senior Member Gabriel's Avatar
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    Justin,

    I didn't know that! I remember once I was watching a cartoon series on Fox ("God, Bob and the Devil" or something of the sort) where they made a sarcastic joke about "Che Guevara" being in hell asking if Communism had succeded and this guy, Bob, answering "Yeah, yeah, right... it is everywhere". I don't particularly like Communism (actually, I dislike it), but I find it very despective to talk like that about an idea you don't believe in. Same thing happens with this museum you mention in Cuba: I'm sure that if the States needed it, they would have taken the island a looong time ago.

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