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    Default sobre esto?

    Hi all,

    I am having difficulty translating the following sentence:

    "Solo se exceptúan las licencias esplicadas sobre esto ..."

    The context is a book on an artificial language (from 1863), and the author previously says that figurative language is not permitted. This sentence then says there are some exceptions, i.e. some "freedoms", but the only explanation of these exceptions/freedoms is a little after this sentence, not before it, and even then I am not sure whether those are the freedoms that he is talking about here.

    Any help would be much appreciated, Alan

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    Senior Member Cotty's Avatar
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    Default Re: sobre esto?

    As with any other pronoun the referent (antecedent) should be before (and not too far from) said pronoun.

    According to the DRAE:

    Esto: 1. pron. dem. Designa lo que está cerca de la persona que habla, o representa y señala lo que se acaba de mencionar.


    Hence, I think esto is figurative language.

    He is saying fig.lang. is not allowed, however, there are some exceptions.

    Some exceptions to what? To the use of figurative language.
    Last edited by Cotty; 04-17-2011 at 11:43 AM.

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    Default Re: sobre esto?

    Hi,

    Thanks for that. I was thrown off by the fact that up until that point no exceptions had been explained, as far as I can tell, and I have have expected that he was referring back to some exceptions that he had previously discussed. I was then not sure (and still am not sure) whether "esplicadas" meant that he had already mentioned them and I had missed them (or more likely, he had forgotten to mention them before), or whether he meant exceptions that he was about to explain.

    By the way, it is possible for a pronoun to refer forward rather than backward, though it is rare:

    This is what I am going to do, I will go meet him at noon.

    (I teach semantics so this comes up in my classes :-) ). Of course usually pronouns refer back to something mentioned not long before, as you say.

    Thanks again, Alan

    Esto: 1. pron. dem. Designa lo que está cerca de la persona que habla, o representa y señala lo que se acaba de mencionar.


    Hence, I think esto is figurative language.

    He is saying fig.lang. is not allowed, however, there are some exceptions.

    Some exceptions to what? To the use of figurative language.[/QUOTE]

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    Senior Member Cotty's Avatar
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    Default Re: sobre esto?

    Hi Alan
    …I was thrown off by the fact that up until that point no exceptions had been explained, as far as I can tell, and I have have expected that he was referring back to some exceptions that he had previously discussed.

    Not necessarily, the explanation of such exceptions can be done afterwards. A random example comes to mind: Se permiten las regulaciones aplicadas en estos casos. Dichas regulaciones son: x, y,z. Aplicadas is a participal adjective that is giving an attribute to the word regulaciones and therefore is not indicating the time of an action. Nonetheless, your problem is esto, and whether the exceptions had been previously explained or not, the word esto refers to something mentioned not too long before. (Unles is of course a structure similar to your This is what I am going to do, etc.)
    I was then not sure (and still am not sure) whether "esplicadas" meant that he had already mentioned them and I had missed them (or more likely, he had forgotten to mention them before), or whether he meant exceptions that he was about to explain.

    Yes, I understand your confusion, but it’s very difficult for me to help you without taking a look at the text. BTW, it’s explicadas.


    ...it is possible for a pronoun to refer forward rather than backward, though it is rare:This is what I am going to do, I will go meet him at noon.
    (I teach semantics so this comes up in my classes :-) ). Of course usually pronouns refer back to something mentioned not long before, as you say.

    I’m sorry if I addressed your question from a too basic point of view. There is no way for me to know how much grammar the person posting knows. I teach too. One of the courses I teach is Reading English for Science and Technology, and referents are a big part of reading comprehension exercises.

    If you can supply more text, I'll be glad to continue helping you figure it out

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    Default Re: sobre esto -- esplicadas

    Hi again,

    . BTW, it’s explicadas.


    Ah I know that of course, but this is an old and eccentric text (1862 or something) with
    all sorts of oddities and this is one of them, it really is esplicadas.

    I will send you the whole context later ...

    Thanks, Alan

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    Default Re: sobre esto -- esplicadas

    Hi Alan
    Ah I know that of course, but this is an old and eccentric text (1862 or something) with
    all sorts of oddities and this is one of them, it really is esplicadas.
    My bad again, sorry. And of course you knew that. You provided enough context from the beginning and I should have looked it up before doubting your spelling skills.
    I just never heard of it, but I briefly looked it up just now and apparently it was fairly common in the 1800s.

    Well, it seems you are on the right track and know what you are doing.

    A la tercera va la vencida! Despite my two failed attemps to shed some light into your translation, I hope that in the third one I can contribute with something that perhaps you don't already know.

    Saludos,
    Last edited by Cotty; 04-18-2011 at 11:43 AM.

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    Default Re: sobre esto -- esplicadas

    Hi again,

    Here (finally) is more context:

    En la Lengua Universal no se admiten figuras de letras ni de diccion. Solo se exceptúan las licencias esplicadas sobre esto, porque están tan fijas sus reglas, que no dejan lugar á dudas ni equivocaiones. Sin embargo, es conveniente y aun necesario admitir tres clases de figuras ó metáforas de sentido.

    Actually a couple days ago a new PhD student of mine arrived -- he is from Venezuela and I asked him about this, so now I think I understand what is going on.

    If you want to see something else interesting, try this one (again the oddities are not due to me):

    O terminologia do korespondensia, elemento tan importante en o komunikasión sosial i komersial, se modernisa en neoispano adoptando expresiones piu práktiko ao prinsipo i fin d letras. O expresiones, aktualmente en uso d “Muy señoro mío” i “Su seguro servidor”, es no solomente antikuado, sino beromente ridíkulo, porke no tiene ningún signifikado. En korespondensia komersial, Señor: ao prinsipio, i, Salute. ao fin, es piu apropriado.

    Regards, Alan

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    Default Re: sobre esto -- esplicadas

    I think we're back to square one. And it turns out I was on the right track the first time around.

    En la Lengua Universal no se admiten figuras de letras ni de diccion. Solo se exceptúan las licencias esplicadas sobre esto, porque están tan fijas sus reglas, que no dejan lugar á dudas ni equivocaiones. Sin embargo, es conveniente y aun necesario admitir tres clases de figuras ó metáforas de sentido.

    Esto means it. Nothing more and nothing less. Esto refers to no se admiten las figuras de letra ni de diccion, whether the licencias esplicadas were explained before or will be explained after.

    Actually a couple days ago a new PhD student of mine arrived -- he is from Venezuela and I asked him about this, so now I think I understand what is going on.
    It is quite obvious for a native speaker what esto refers to in those lines you supply. Did your student go to school here in Venezuela? I used to teach at Unimet and now I teach at USB. Perhaps he studied in one of those?

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    Default Re: sobre esto -- esplicadas

    Hi, Thanks for that, sorry for my delay in replying, I have been having internet problems. My student went to (I think) ULA? Does that mean anything? I have not really had a chance to talk with him much.

    >Esto refers to no se admiten las figuras de letra ni de diccion, whether the licencias esplicadas were explained before or will be explained after.

    >It is quite obvious for a native speaker what esto refers to in those lines you supply

    Actually he agreed with me that it was odd that the "liberties" referred to were after, rather than before this passage. If I were to refer to things that I was going to explain, I would rather say "the liberties to be explained" rather than "the explained liberties" or "the liberties which have been explained". I would think the same would apply in Spanish or other languages, unless there were some special context. I had a couple problems with this sentence, but the odd thing for me is not that esto
    refers to no se admiten las figuras de letra ni de diccion, but the word esplicadas.

    Anyway, thanks so much for your help -- between you and my new student, I think I understand what is going on there.

    Regards, Alan

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