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Thread: Punto en lugar de coma

 
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    Default Punto en lugar de coma

    Los textos legales en inglés suelen tener párrafos muy largos, que dificultan la lectura y posterior traducción.

    ¿Ustedes suelen acortarlos mediante la introducción de puntos cuando el texto lo permite?

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    mmm suena complicado de hacer, pues para poder poner un punto aparte tiene que finalizar un concepto y empezar uno nuevo, no? cómo sería un ejemplo de reemplazo válido de una coma por un punto?

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Hola.

    Así es. No es cuestión de agregar puntos alegremente (por cualquier lugar).

    Hay que leer la oración párrafo. A veces, es tan simple como reemplazar un punto y coma por un punto. En las oraciones párrafo, es frecuente el cambio de idea mediante un punto y coma seguido de un conector del tipo "furthermore", "moreover", etc. La oración que comienza con el conector puede separarse mediante un punto de la oración previa.

    En Plain English Campaign, encontrarás excelentes ejemplos de oraciones largas que, claramente, deben acortarse para su mejor comprensión.

    Abajo cito una oración de 630 palabras:

    'A path from a point approximately 330 metres east of the most south westerly corner of 17 Batherton Close, Widnes and approximately 208 metres east-south-east of the most southerly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, Widnes, proceeding in a generally east-north-easterly direction for approximately 28 metres to a point approximately 202 metres east-south-east of the most south-easterly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, and approximately 347 metres east of the most south-easterly corner of 17 Batherton Close, then proceeding in a generally northerly direction for approximately 21 metres to a point approximately 210 metres east of the most south-easterly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, and approximately 202 metres east-south-east of the most north-easterly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally east-north-east direction for approximately 64 metres to a point approximately 282 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 2 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, Widnes and approximately 259 metres east of the most southerly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally east-north-east direction for approximately 350 metres to a point approximately 3 metres west-north-west of the most north westerly corner of the boundary fence of the scrap metal yard on the south side of Cornubia Road, Widnes, and approximately 47 metres west-south-west of the stub end of Cornubia Road be diverted to a 3 metre wide path from a point approximately 183 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 272 metres east of the most north-easterly corner of 26 Ann Street West, Widnes, then proceeding in a generally north easterly direction for approximately 58 metres to a point approximately 216 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 221 metres east of the most southerly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally easterly direction for approximately 45 metres to a point approximately 265 metres east-south-east of the most north-easterly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 265 metres east of the most southerly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally east-south-east direction for approximately 102 metres to a point approximately 366 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 463 metres east of the most north easterly corner of 22 Ann Street West, Widnes, then proceeding in a generally north-north-easterly direction for approximately 19 metres to a point approximately 368 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 512 metres east of the most south easterly corner of 17 Batherton Close, Widnes then proceeding in a generally east-south, easterly direction for approximately 16 metres to a point approximately 420 metres east-south-east of the most southerly corner of Unit 2 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 533 metres east of the most south-easterly corner of 17 Batherton Close, then proceeding in a generally east-north-easterly direction for approximately 240 metres to a point approximately 606 metres east of the most northerly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 23 metres south of the most south westerly corner of the boundary fencing of the scrap metal yard on the south side of Cornubia Road, Widnes, then proceeding in a generally northern direction for approximately 44 metres to a point approximately 3 metres west-north-west of the most north westerly corner of the boundary fence of the scrap metal yard on the south side of Cornubia Road and approximately 47 metres west-south-west of the stub end of Cornubia Road.’
    Last edited by reminder; 08-28-2014 at 09:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Since that is a complete sentence providing directions in a legal document I would NOT add a period.

    It is definitely an unusually long sentence, maybe the longest I have seen, but lawyers have their reasons.

    What's funny is that I've always thought that Spanish had the longest sentences without periods.
    vicente

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Sí, en el ejemplo todo es una misma oración, es decir un mismo tema/concepto, definitivamente no hay donde insertar un punto, y creo que tampoco habría donde insertarlo en su traducción al español.

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Bueno, para los amantes de las oraciones largas, a continuación les cito otro ejemplo (ahora sí de abogados, porque el anterior es un acto administrativo), que tiene la módica cantidad de 516 palabras:

    'In the event that the Purchaser defaults in the payment of any instalment of purchase price, taxes, insurance, interest, or the annual charge described elsewhere herein, or shall default in the performance of any other obligations set forth in this Contract, the Seller may: at his option: (a) Declare immediately due and payable the entire unpaid balance of purchase price, with accrued interest, taxes, and annual charge, and demand full payment thereof, and enforce conveyance of the land by termination of the contract or according to the terms hereof, in which case the Purchaser shall also be liable to the Seller for reasonable attorney's fees for services rendered by any attorney on behalf of the Seller, or (b) sell said land and premises or any part thereof at public auction, in such manner, at such time and place, upon such terms and conditions, and upon such public notice as the Seller may deem best for the interest of all concerned, consisting of advertisement in a newspaper of general circulation in the county or city in which the security property is located at least once a week for Three (3) successive weeks or for such period as applicable law may require and, in case of default of any purchaser, to re-sell with such postponement of sale or resale and upon such public notice thereof as the Seller may determine, and upon compliance by the Purchaser with the terms of sale, and upon judicial approval as may be required by law, convey said land and premises in fee simple to and at the cost of the Purchaser, who shall not be liable to see to the application of the purchase money; and from the proceeds of the sale: First to pay all proper costs and charges, including but not limited to court costs, advertising expenses, auctioneer's allowance, the expenses, if any required to correct any irregularity in the title, premium for Seller's bond, auditor's fee, attorney's fee, and all other expenses of sale occurred in and about the protection and execution of this contract, and all moneys advanced for taxes, assessments, insurance, and with interest thereon as provided herein, and all taxes due upon said land and premises at time of sale, and to retain as compensation a commission of five percent (5%) on the amount of said sale or sales; SECOND, to pay the whole amount then remaining unpaid of the principal of said contract, and interest thereon to date of payment, whether the same shall be due or not, it being understood and agreed that upon such sale before maturity of the contract the balance thereof shall be immediately due and payable; THIRD, to pay liens of record against the security property according to their priority of lien and to the extent that funds remaining in the hands of the Seller are available; and LAST, to pay the remainder of said proceeds, if any, to the vendor, his heirs, personals representatives, successors or assigns upon the delivery and surrender to the vendee of possession of the land and premises, less costs and excess of obtaining possession.'

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Quote Originally Posted by reminder View Post
    Hola.

    Así es. No es cuestión de agregar puntos alegremente (por cualquier lugar).

    Hay que leer la oración párrafo. A veces, es tan simple como reemplazar un punto y coma por un punto. En las oraciones párrafo, es frecuente el cambio de idea mediante un punto y coma seguido de un conector del tipo "furthermore", "moreover", etc. La oración que comienza con el conector puede separarse mediante un punto de la oración previa.

    En Plain English Campaign, encontrarás excelentes ejemplos de oraciones largas que, claramente, deben acortarse para su mejor comprensión.

    Abajo cito una oración de 630 palabras:

    'A path from a point approximately 330 metres east of the most south westerly corner of 17 Batherton Close, Widnes and approximately 208 metres east-south-east of the most southerly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, Widnes, proceeding in a generally east-north-easterly direction for approximately 28 metres to a point approximately 202 metres east-south-east of the most south-easterly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, and approximately 347 metres east of the most south-easterly corner of 17 Batherton Close, then proceeding in a generally northerly direction for approximately 21 metres to a point approximately 210 metres east of the most south-easterly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, and approximately 202 metres east-south-east of the most north-easterly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally east-north-east direction for approximately 64 metres to a point approximately 282 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 2 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, Widnes and approximately 259 metres east of the most southerly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally east-north-east direction for approximately 350 metres to a point approximately 3 metres west-north-west of the most north westerly corner of the boundary fence of the scrap metal yard on the south side of Cornubia Road, Widnes, and approximately 47 metres west-south-west of the stub end of Cornubia Road be diverted to a 3 metre wide path from a point approximately 183 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 272 metres east of the most north-easterly corner of 26 Ann Street West, Widnes, then proceeding in a generally north easterly direction for approximately 58 metres to a point approximately 216 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 221 metres east of the most southerly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally easterly direction for approximately 45 metres to a point approximately 265 metres east-south-east of the most north-easterly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 265 metres east of the most southerly corner of Unit 5 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street, then proceeding in a generally east-south-east direction for approximately 102 metres to a point approximately 366 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 463 metres east of the most north easterly corner of 22 Ann Street West, Widnes, then proceeding in a generally north-north-easterly direction for approximately 19 metres to a point approximately 368 metres east-south-east of the most easterly corner of Unit 3 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 512 metres east of the most south easterly corner of 17 Batherton Close, Widnes then proceeding in a generally east-south, easterly direction for approximately 16 metres to a point approximately 420 metres east-south-east of the most southerly corner of Unit 2 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 533 metres east of the most south-easterly corner of 17 Batherton Close, then proceeding in a generally east-north-easterly direction for approximately 240 metres to a point approximately 606 metres east of the most northerly corner of Unit 4 Foundry Industrial Estate, Victoria Street and approximately 23 metres south of the most south westerly corner of the boundary fencing of the scrap metal yard on the south side of Cornubia Road, Widnes, then proceeding in a generally northern direction for approximately 44 metres to a point approximately 3 metres west-north-west of the most north westerly corner of the boundary fence of the scrap metal yard on the south side of Cornubia Road and approximately 47 metres west-south-west of the stub end of Cornubia Road.’
    This is what is called a legal description of a property. In the US, the legal description of a property is not the postal address (123 Main St, Anytown, CA 90001). It is what you see above.

    These could sometimes be very, very long. I have heard of some that are 3 pages long. I had never thought about translating them. I see how it could be a problem. This one above uses meters so I suppose it must be referring to property in England..

    I suppose using periods to manage it would be in order.

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    mmm.. veo que en éste ejemplo quizá podría separarse el párrafos como items donde dice First, Second, Third y Last.

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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Quote Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan View Post
    This is what is called a legal description of a property. In the US, the legal description of a property is not the postal address (123 Main St, Anytown, CA 90001). It is what you see above.

    These could sometimes be very, very long. I have heard of some that are 3 pages long. I had never thought about translating them. I see how it could be a problem. This one above uses meters so I suppose it must be referring to property in England..

    I suppose using periods to manage it would be in order.

    Actually now that I paid more attention, this is the description of a path. I cannot find how narrow or wide the path is though. It is probably a path used for an easement.

    So for example, if a utility company has the right to cross your property, they can do so using this path and the path shape is described here.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Punto en lugar de coma

    Hola a todos.

    ¡Muchas gracias por los aportes tan valiosos!

    Estos ejemplos, de hecho, han sido seleccionados en una campaña sobre lo que nosotros denominamos "lenguaje ciudadano", en inglés, "plain English". El primer ejemplo es un aviso sobre un cambio de ubicación de un camino, exactamente, como tú dices.

    De todas formas, vemos oraciones largas en nuestras traducciones cotidianas en todos los sectores. En español, también se ha incentivado mucho la comunicación clara y simple, justamente sobre la base del puntapié inicial del "plain English".

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